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don't want to put you in a pop coma

  • Jan. 19th, 2009 at 3:14 PM
can't sleep books will eat me
Please read this linked post before proceeding. This post has been closed to new comments.

State of the Bear:

1) I've participated in Warren Ellis's Blue Monday Signage Self-Portrait meme. Down the bottom.

2) I said I wasn't going to do this, and I already regret it.

But I'm on the horns of an ethical dilemma here. I'm still trying to stay out of the cultural appropriation debate. Yes, I am. Because it's not about me, and it hasn't honestly been about me in days, and honestly I don't care what people I don't know think of me. I'm not here to defend myself and I'm not here for a pat on the head.

Here's the thing: It's not about me. It's about people feeling marginalized and feeling that their voices are going unheard and being dismissed, and there's a lot of provocative language going around, and it's become personal enough that there's no way I can say much or anything at this point without seeming to choose sides. And since I have dear friends on both sides of the argument, and I currently disagree with things that most of them have said, and I am politically about the worst candidate for peacemaker around, I'll be over here wishing we could all stand down from our ego-defense and self-justification a little and maybe listen some.

I will, however, share something that I wrote in part as a reply to a comment by [info]browngirl which seemed so wise and balanced to me that I needed to respond. I'm not going to link to her comment, because I don't want to lead the flamewar there, but here's what I've learned (am learning) during this past week.

I think there's an elephant in the room that I think is getting largely talked around, and I think it's because to half of the discussants, it's so invisible they don't realize it exists, and to the other half, it's so enormous they can't understand how anybody could MISS it.

It goes like this. (White people, please pay attention here.)

1) I, as a white writer, am coming at including COC in my work from an outsider perspective. I am aware of this, and even if I attempt to write those COC from a subject position rather than an object one--

2) a white audience may find my outsider-written characters more compelling than insider-written COC (because they conform to a pre-existing outsider bias)

3) which may mean that my outsider-written COC contribute to a dominant image of "what POC are like" in dominant/colonizing/assimilating culture

3a) which is perceived as competing for space with insider portrayals, and thus reinforcing the object position I meant to undermine

4) thus also leading to a perception or reality of silencing or further marginalization of writers of color, which is

5) entirely at odds with my own intention of *increasing* the representation of same in the field.

6) Facepalm, lather, rinse, repeat.

So, no, writers of pinky-beigeness, nobody is telling you you can't write characters of color. They're telling you, please listen when (and after) you do. I know that's not what it feels like you're being told, but that's because you are missing the context of existing marginalization. If you do choose to write characters of color, you are also choosing to accept the criticism of same. However, if you choose to write for publication, you are choosing to accept criticism of your work. Period.

Put on your big boy pants and suck it up. As [info]nojojojo has pointed out, writers of color are also not immune from these criticisms and difficulties, either.

(in exemplia: in the post on othering in which I planted the seed for this meltdown, I criticized [info]kenscholes's construction of women publicly. Ken is a friend of mine. We share an editor and an agent. You know what Ken did? He sent me a nice email saying "Thanks." Ken has big boy pants.)

And you know what? There is absolutely a place for outsider or commonly-othered characters as written by more mainstream creators.

I am thinking of this, because I am much more familiar with the insider trading of queer politics, as the Brokeback Mountain problem, and that one, I can comprehend from an insider point of view. Which is to say, BBM, a movie about two white gay closeted men, was created from a story written by a straight white woman (AFAIK?) and directed by a straight Asian male.

Mainstream society found this story a lot more accessible than many (all) queer movies about the queer experience, and I think in a lot of ways BBM *was* very narratively honest in its depiction of both closeted homosexuality and the collateral damage related to same. I ALSO think it changed the zeitgeist, awakened a lot of mainstream viewers to the idea that Gay People Are Human Beings, and may have made the world a better place.

However, comma, it is a movie about Tragic Gay Guys Who Die Or Are Miserable Because They Are Gay. And the queer community is really, really tired of that shit.

(I'm not equating the queer experience and the black experience, but I am drawing an analogy between the way art is perceived by insiders and outsiders to a marginalized subculture. So I think maybe we-collectively need to find a way to talk about and correct that sense of marginalization. Some of which is as simple as to, hello, encourage white readers to read Sherman Alexie instead of or at the very least in addition to what's-her-name.)

In other words, there's two such massively different sets of experiences at work here that we almost can't hear each other, and we really don't understand what each other are saying.


Both pursuant to and tangential to the discussion, I'm still reading Patrick Rothfuss's The Name of the Wind, which is beautifully written, structurally problematic, and full of straight white guys with straight white guy problems. And yet it gave me this sentence last night, which I think has bearing:

"You have to be a bit of a liar to tell a story properly. Too much truth confuses the facts."



Comments on this post are so, so very, very moderated. Feel free to agree or disagree with me or anyone else, but if you can't be polite, I'm not having you in my house. And I'm going out tonight and most of the day tomorrow, so I won't be responding or unscreening very much. I say this in advance so that nobody feels as if I am picking on them.



...and yes, the current music was serendipitous, not selected.

Comments

( 142 comments — Leave a comment )
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[info]kassrachel wrote:
Jan. 19th, 2009 08:18 pm (UTC)
Well-said. Thank you.
[info]xjenavivex wrote:
Jan. 19th, 2009 08:24 pm (UTC)
My respect for you only deepens with time. Thank you.
[info]deakat wrote:
Jan. 19th, 2009 08:28 pm (UTC)
You are very wise. I thank you, also.
[info]elissa_carey wrote:
Jan. 19th, 2009 08:30 pm (UTC)
"You have to be a bit of a liar to tell a story properly. Too much truth confuses the facts."

I believe this statement to be full of truthiness. A writer's job is to tell pretty lies so compelling that you want to believe them. (And if those pretty lies are actually ugly truths, so much the better.)
(Anonymous) wrote:
Jan. 20th, 2009 12:21 am (UTC)
A quote I scribbled down while I was reading Lloyd Alexander's [i]Arkadians[/i] last month:

[i]If a storyteller worried about the facts -- my dear Lucian, how could he ever get at the truth?[/i]

In a kid's book, natch, and spoken by a jackass, which is why Alexander ever was and ever will be a hero of mine. He gives good truth.
[info]beccastareyes wrote:
Jan. 19th, 2009 08:34 pm (UTC)
I will say the previous post gave me something to think about. I was actually wondering how things were going in that, since I couldn't keep up with all the comments.
[info]pickledherring wrote:
Jan. 19th, 2009 08:48 pm (UTC)
Bear,

From a stranger, my hat's off to you. I'm taking notes in case I ever need to remember how to handle fire with grace. I've also been learning a lot.

Indi
[info]carbonel wrote:
Jan. 19th, 2009 08:52 pm (UTC)
I wonder if the BBM-type learning experience is analogous to the way I learned karate.

When I started with Shotokan karate many years ago, the sensei taught us methods for doing several things. It wasn't until we'd mastered that incorrect, or at least interim, technique that we could actually learn to do the techniques the right way. If we'd started out being taught the actual techniques, we would have damaged and frustrated ourselves, with only a couple of the more gifted students actually learning anything useful.

Instead, all of us (even me, the klutz) made progress in the class. I ended up dropping out instead of going on to purple belt, but I was enriched by the experience.
[info]andelku wrote:
Jan. 19th, 2009 08:53 pm (UTC)
1) I, as a white writer, am coming at including COC in my work from an outsider perspective. I am aware of this, and even if I attempt to write those COC from a subject position rather than an object one--

2) a white audience may find my outsider-written characters more compelling than insider-written COC (because they conform to a pre-existing outsider bias)

3) which may mean that my outsider-written COC contribute to a dominant image of "what POC are like" in dominant/colonizing/assimilating culture

3a) which is perceived as competing for space with insider portrayals, and thus reinforcing the object position I meant to undermine

4) thus also leading to a perception or reality of silencing or further marginalization of writers of color, which is

5) entirely at odds with my own intention of *increasing* the representation of same in the field.

6) Facepalm, lather, rinse, repeat.


Oh, thank you!

Yes, this has been what I've been trying to say every time this topic comes up ... and its not because I don't think you have the very best intentions in the world! It's that it isn't the same to have PoCs (or queers, or women or Mormons, whatever!) written by non-PoCs ... we need more characters written from the PoC (or queer, female, Mormon, whatever) point of view!

And not just in a we want to bash straight white male (non-Mormon?) people so stand still and take it kind of way either!

In my view the real tragedy is that there are all kinds of institutional publishing barriers that keep SF&F writers of color out of mainstream SF&F, even when it is written! It is seen by the market as appealing to limited "exotic" or identity-based interest ... ie, only black readers would want to read Gloria Naylor's Mama Day ... an excellent fantasy written about an island in Georgia that is wrapped up in fascinating corner of black history ... and I'd have never discovered if I hadn't taken a class in African-American literature on purpose.

I'm sure you've come across How to Suppress Women's Writing by Johanna Russ at some point. Substitute PoC for Women and you'll see what I mean.








[info]matociquala wrote:
Jan. 19th, 2009 09:01 pm (UTC)
Right, and I absolutely have never meant to say that I think it's the same to have outsiders writing insider culture, as it were. (I think I said this explicitly in my post on othering, in fact, where I pointed out how much *better* the Jewish character is with a Jewish writer on the team.)

I have just been attempting to provide tools for *doing it* as best as one can.

And see? Elephant in the room.
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[info]tranceptor wrote:
Jan. 19th, 2009 08:58 pm (UTC)
Hell, even as a straight person I'm tired of the whole tragic/miserable gay [insert medium] that comes out. It does lead one to the falsehood that not being straight sucks.

[info]matociquala wrote:
Jan. 19th, 2009 09:02 pm (UTC)
You'd almost wonder why anybody does it. *g*
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[info]cjtremlett wrote:
Jan. 19th, 2009 08:59 pm (UTC)
Very well said. I'm going to bookmark this and pull it out and think about it again the next time I think about writing something with characters of other colors/cultures/etc.
[info]ithiliana wrote:
Jan. 19th, 2009 09:00 pm (UTC)
Thank you. This post is worth highlighting.
[info]matociquala wrote:
Jan. 19th, 2009 09:06 pm (UTC)
Thank you. *g*

BTW, I do NOT want to cramp your style, but I'm really looking forward to the rest of your critical reading of W&W B&I (get your own titles right, Bear). And I will sit on my hands and not comment. I promise. *g*

(But to clarify, in his native form, Whiskey is a piebald horse. Spotted animals are traditionally symbolic of the otherworld in Irish myth.)

Edited at 2009-01-19 09:08 pm (UTC)
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[info]katallen wrote:
Jan. 19th, 2009 09:03 pm (UTC)
You know I don't think outsider characters are necessarily compelling because they conform to an outsider bias but because an outsider can perhaps best represent to others what *they* see. If what they see is the stereotype, then they retransmit the stereotype, but yanno some people's appreciation of lions changes if you show them playing with their cubs as opposed to always showing them slaughtering zebras. I guess what I'm attempting to say is that if you have two sides one of which is perfectly happy ignoring the other, then maybe a mediator, a Marco Polo even, isn't a bad thing. And that if you're trying to represent side a to side b in ways that they feel will be understood by side b, the things about side a that they feel help them understand (and yes understand here is probably the fluffy fuzzy kind of not dismissing them out of hand rather than actually being able to walk a mile in their shoes) ar going to be treated as the most important to relay.

I was thinking that maybe part of the complication is that the first stage of representation is hard to make happen but easy compared... knowing the other side exists. (For simplicity I'm kind of skipping the possibility that there's been a stage where blacks gays or whatever exist as characters entirely to confirm to anyone not in that group that that kind of perversion shouldn't exist). Just having a black character, or a gay character, or whatever that means people see them. And then you get to struggle with moving from wallpaper through tokens and up to characters who have some positive attributes to which anyone who is not black gay or whatever can relate. Only these attributes may not be ones that side a believes are core or important and side a may, and may rightly, feel annoyed by such simplifications of complex issues that matter to them.

I'm not trying to make light when I say that histlory scholars get enraged by the simplifications of their subject (dear to their hearts) into bite sized pieces of popular culture... but done right it does at least give people an idea of what happened in the past (done wrong it's an ugly mess, of course, so it's right that history scholars tell us why Troy may not have had llamas).

And I think a lot of Western society is still in the phase where they're not ready, and can't be ready, for characters who embody every aspect that a black gay whatever person would like to see. And yes, that also means that black gay whatever writers either write for their own community and the few outside their community who are ready willing and able to enjoy what they serve up... or likewise have to be part of the mediation... of offering up characters who go that bit further than an outsider writer can take them but not so far that they become impenetrable to outsider readers. (And yes, insider conversation quickly becomes impenetrable to outsiders whatever the in or out groups may be). And yes that sucks. It's not right.

But unless we go through the mediation process, unless we try. Side a and side b just keep on yelling at each other, or worse, ignoring each other. And one day something really bad will happen. Again.

(and yeah I think that's more than enough mind blurt from me)
[info]pixel39 wrote:
Jan. 19th, 2009 09:29 pm (UTC)
It's the 'baby steps' philosophy. Not everybody is ready for X, so you give them x first to get them used to the idea.
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[info]tsarina wrote:
Jan. 19th, 2009 09:03 pm (UTC)
It goes like this.

I think that is a succinct and thoughtful breakdown of what I've been trying to think about and map out in my head. Thanks for posting it.
[info]pnkrokhockeymom wrote:
Jan. 19th, 2009 09:08 pm (UTC)
What you said.
[info]loligo wrote:
Jan. 19th, 2009 09:09 pm (UTC)
Thanks for writing this -- it's a really cogent and useful summary of some of the underlying issues (especially the numbered list).
[info]magentamn wrote:
Jan. 19th, 2009 09:12 pm (UTC)
Excellent and cogent. Thank you.

And this is why I will stay with LJ, even though facebook is fun at times. No one is going to post a long, well-thought out essay there. And that's what I feed on.
[info]pixel39 wrote:
Jan. 19th, 2009 09:21 pm (UTC)
I think if you post a long, well-though out essay on facebook you get your membership revoked. ;-)
[info]debreese_nambe wrote:
Jan. 19th, 2009 09:13 pm (UTC)
I gather the discussion has been about a book for adult readers. My work as a critic is on books written and marketed for children and young adults. Misrepresentations and erroneous material about American Indians fills too many pages, and hence, too many minds.

My colleagues and I are currently engaged in critique of a book by a white writer named Beth Kanell. She wrote a book called DARKNESS UNDER THE WATER that is being presented by her and others as being about the Vermont Eugenics Project, through which people of the Abenaki nations were institutionalized and sterilized.

Kanell backed off saying the book is about that project, and is now saying she used that project to create a climate of fear for her Abenaki characters to live in. "Live in" to her means that she created two nurses who came into an Abenaki home and delivered a stillborn child and a "handful of bloody flesh." Her characters think the nurses deliberately killed the baby and that the bloody flesh is the tissue they remove in a sterilization they do on the kitchen table. Sensational, isn't it?

Yet, horribly insensitive to the Abenaki people, for whom that project is not a distant memory, but something they contend with today.

Nonetheless, the book got positive reviews from mainstream journals, and, it will likely be used in classrooms to "teach" about the eugenics project in Vermont.

As Abenaki reviewers said, the truth of what was done to their people is what must be made known---not this outrageous melodrama whose very bloody existence makes the truth pale in comparison.

Most recently, Kanell (the author) is saying that the Abenaki reviewer did not give her any feedback on the book when it was in manuscript form. Thing is, that reviewer never saw that manuscript.

I'd appreciate anything any of you can do to educate others about this book and its author. I've written a lot about it on my site, American Indians in Children's Literature, located here: http://americanindiansinchildrensliterature.net

Thanks,
Debbie
[info]jenavira wrote:
Jan. 19th, 2009 10:50 pm (UTC)
This is totally OT but I just wanted to say that we spent some time looking at the intersection of racism in literature and censorship in one of my library school classes last semester, and your site was one of the ones we glanced at in class that I wished I'd remembered to write down the address of so I could look at it again later. It's a wonderful site; thank you.
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[info]cereta wrote:
Jan. 19th, 2009 09:13 pm (UTC)
Thank you. I hope people listen.
[info]miintikwa wrote:
Jan. 19th, 2009 09:17 pm (UTC)
I'm sorry that the previous post caused a ruckus. I really enjoyed reading it, and since I am a pink-person trying to write COC real-ly, I appreciate any and all advice and critique I can get on the topic. I often grab my friends whose skin tone is darker than mine and talk their ears off in making sure I am Doing It As Right As I Can, because I know I will never Get It Right-- but I want to get it as closely authentic as I can, in my own voice.

"You have to be a bit of a liar to tell a story properly. Too much truth confuses the facts."

Oh yes. Yes.
[info]galeni wrote:
Jan. 19th, 2009 09:17 pm (UTC)
That makes perfect sense. Brilliant idea, actually. And could explain why Nalo Hopkinson's novels irritate my skin in a way that Jenny Casey didn't. Nalo's work was obviously brilliantly literate and well-written, but left me feeling...guilty. I don't like feeling guilty when I read a book, especially when it's over nothing I have actually erred in. Is this guilt in the DNA? I'm from California, not the South, so it wasn't anything I was raised with, and my parents are from New York State, so it wasn't from them either. I read science fiction and fantasy, so I'm easy with characters no matter where they are from and how (un)human they might be. Even bugs. (Julie Czerneda made me like reading about bugs.)

Colour isn't the first thing I see about a person, but obviously it does affect my perceptions more than I thought. (Gender and possible threat are the first things I notice. Race is way way down the checklist.)



[info]elorie wrote:
Jan. 19th, 2009 10:32 pm (UTC)
I'm from California, not the South, so it wasn't anything I was raised with

I think that's an assumption that needs examining. It might have been more overt for me (I WAS raised in the South) but I don't think that anyone in the entire US can say that they weren't raised with racist assumptions. It's in the water, practically; it's definitely all embedded in the media. (Which is why this discussion of how people are portrayed in literature, and who gets to do the portraying, is important). California in particular has more hate groups than any other state (this is a function of population, but still) and there was the recent shooting in Oakland (nor is that a unique incident). There's plenty of socially reinforced racism in California; I have observed it myself. But it can be very subtle unless it's directed at you or you have enough education on the subject to notice it.

In some ways, I think it's actually harder for people who didn't grow up in the South; because at no point in my life have I not gone to school with, lived near, worked with, been friends with, and otherwise had regular peer-level contact with POC. There were weird tensions and attitudes and history that warped some of those interactions to be sure, but there is just nothing like having real, regular contact with actual people to get rid of stupid ideas. That's why so much of the apparatus of institutional racism is enforced separation.

Anyway...I don't think that guilt is necessarily a productive reaction, but I think anyone who is walking around with that "invisible knapsack of privilege" is going to feel a sense of alarm and discomfort when it becomes suddenly visible in a *visceral* rather than intellectual way. That's normal. The real question is what you do next.
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I agree with this comment! - [info]ithiliana - Jan. 19th, 2009 10:59 pm (UTC) Expand
Re: I agree with this comment! - [info]matociquala - Jan. 20th, 2009 01:19 am (UTC) Expand
Re: I agree with this comment! - [info]ithiliana - Jan. 20th, 2009 02:46 am (UTC) Expand
Re: I agree with this comment! - [info]beccastareyes - Jan. 21st, 2009 02:54 am (UTC) Expand
SPOILERS FOR THE JENNY CASEY BOOKS - [info]matociquala - Jan. 20th, 2009 01:23 am (UTC) Expand
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[info]hilleviw wrote:
Jan. 19th, 2009 09:32 pm (UTC)
This brings up two things for me.

First, Rowlings' revelation after the publication of the last Potter book, that Dumbledore is queer. I suppose I'm wondering whether it makes a difference to have a CoC and not make that fact explicit. And whether, if it does make a difference, what that difference is?

Second, I'm reminded of seeing, many years ago, a production of a Shange play (7 Women, I think, but I'm not sure), and starting to think really seriously about the issue of co-option. As a straight white woman there is certainly a place for me in the black rights movement...but where? If I take a leadership role, then am I undermining the community's right to control and run its own movement? If I stand on the sidelines does it look as though my support isn't whole hearted? I think I mostly decided that my task is to be available, and then wait to be asked. I don't know exactly why I think this is pertinent, except, perhaps to reinforce the understanding that it's complicated and there are no entirely correct answers.
[info]matociquala wrote:
Jan. 20th, 2009 01:28 am (UTC)
Sometimes, one can make it explicit and people will still miss it. I have written some light-skinned or nontraditionally phenotyped COC who people assume are white, even then there are blatant clues in the text they're not.

I think Rowling was a bit disingenuous*, because there has to be some clue in the text. However, I recommend Neil Gaiman's Anansi Boys and Nalo Hopkinson's The Salt Roads for ways to handle the color-and-culture issue with subtlety and grace.

Actually, I just bloody well recommend both books.

*OTOH, I have cryptoqueer characters in two books. I think I signposted, but apparently straight people often don't notice. (Maurice in Undertow and Jeremy in Worldwired. But then, I always try to know a lot more about the characters than makes it on the page, and their sexuality wasn't important to the plot.

Edited at 2009-01-20 01:31 am (UTC)
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(no subject) - [info]rikibeth - Jan. 20th, 2009 03:39 am (UTC) Expand
(no subject) - [info]matociquala - Jan. 20th, 2009 04:16 am (UTC) Expand
(no subject) - [info]sprrwhwk - Jan. 20th, 2009 02:48 am (UTC) Expand
[info]gwynnega wrote:
Jan. 19th, 2009 09:37 pm (UTC)
Well said. Thank you.
[info]cherylmmorgan wrote:
Jan. 19th, 2009 09:38 pm (UTC)
I might add that once you have written your book people will read it in a myriad different ways, many of which you did not intend. There is nothing you can do about this. It is just the way fiction works. So even if you wrote it with the best will in the world, some people will be offended by it. Sometimes their offense will be unreasonable, and sometimes it will tell you something about yourself that you didn't know before.
[info]matociquala wrote:
Jan. 20th, 2009 01:30 am (UTC)
Yes to all of this.

And you know, even if their offense is unreasonable, it's still valid.
[info]tlc22 wrote:
Jan. 19th, 2009 09:45 pm (UTC)
Yes. We white writers must write COC. We will be criticized and praised. That's life. I think of films in the 80s or so about South Africa. Many of them were from the POV of a white person who is naive and then educated about the situation through experiences during the film. Why this POV? It works in teaching the audience. Is this fair? No. But it works. Guilt? It's often a reaction to understanding what the dominant culture has been at pains to keep under wraps--that injustice exists and I've experienced life as I have because of that injustice. But don't stop there. Take the next step. Simple (complex) awareness. And patiently working our way through it all.

Elizabeth, both you and Monette take chances in your writing. You find the edge and push against it. Congratulations! Definitely grace under fire.
[info]annafdd wrote:
Jan. 19th, 2009 09:48 pm (UTC)
You win at the internets. Hug, kiss.
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