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me and a troll
John Scalzi on The Myth of the SF Monoculture.

I'm afraid that on some level, I see the emphasis in SF crit on Ideas Uber Alles as just another form of wankery. Ideas are great. They're useful. I like books that center around cool ideas--like the Bose-Einstein mines in Spin State, or every cool thing that [info]autopope spits out that has me going, man, okay, that's some nifty shit, and where in his brain does it come from? (I hear a rumor he shaved his head to provide more cooling surface when he overclocked. Next year, look for radiator vanes.)

But I write about people. Ideas are sort of a second-string focus of my work. I think there's a few cool ones in Worldwired and Carnival (the worldwire itself, for one thing, the Birdcage aliens (Peter wants them to be a construct, which I think is much less interesting than a colloidal hydrogen life form) and the Dragon society and their power source in Carnival) but I'm frankly not interested in SF as a predictive medium, or as a showcase for shiny ideas.

I'm interested in it as literature.

Which means it needs (ideally) to have good writing, strong plots, well-developed characters, layers both accessible and deep, thematic concerns, balanced structure (or meaningfully unbalanced structure), sound technique, narrative force, masterful prose, oh, yes--and ideas, too, because the ideas are what separate SF from regular F. But I think we often get so concerned with marking our little corner of the genre--or divvying it up with little white picket fences of subgenre--mundane SF over *here*, New Weird over *here*, New Pulp over *here*, slipstream in the brook down under the troll bridge, and you surrealists had better get back over to Lit or Fantasy where you belong, don't let the sun set on you here, Kelly Link!--that we forget, well, we're writing books.

We are complicit to our own ghettoization, in other words. Because the SF works that transcend genre do so because they are about more than ideas. Neither 1984 nor The Handmaid's Tale had much going on in the way of new ideas, frankly. But they have a powerful thematic resonance that speaks to readers both inside and outside of genre. They have something to say.

SF is so far from a monoculture it's sometimes hard to see it, frankly, as even one culture. And the teapot tempests that concern the in-crowd are club scene issues.

(digression: Don't get me wrong. I love the club scene. But I'm also aware that that's exactly where the arguments about Mundane SF and Sensawunda (and does it exist today, Dave Truesdale?!) and Where Have All The Big Ideas Gone are raging. In the club scene, the maybe ten to fifteen thousand people worldwide who are avid congoers and involved fans and who read some or many of the genre short fiction publications and keep up on the debates and have voted for a Hugo in the last ten years.)

The best big idea! SF has that same resonance, of course. Digging around for examples, The Left Hand of Darkness leaps to mind. But I notice that that's a book that gets taught in lit classes, and not merely by SF apologists.

Heck, I'd even say there are a bunch of 'classic' SF novels that don't really have a lot in the way of ideas at all. Dune (and I am a Dune apologist--I really like that book. I like its scope, its entanglements, its awkward use of omniscient, and its sometimes painful plot. Hell, I even like its stupid caricatures of female characters. God help me.) isn't about ideas. Dune's big "ideas" are plot contrivances, macguffins. Spice = Letters of Transit.)

And I guess that brings me to my point, which is this: in its reliance on idea over character, over theme, over plot, over prosody, SF basically condemns itself to the ghetto of fiction-about-ideas, and then has the nerve to look shocked when people say "but it kind of sucks." Whereas I prefer to think of it as something bigger--and more challenging, alas. Which is to say, what I'm striving for is fiction.

Which also, mind you, has ideas. And preferably really, really shiny ideas. Which I think probably makes it harder than literary fiction, since at that point it's an ape in a dress, and man, getting an ape into a dress is one thing, but getting that ape to look good in the dress is another entirely.

Now, I'm not saying I'm writing The Left Hand of Darkness over here.

But boy, would I like to.

And on that note, I think I need to go write some more of this Randall Garrett/Arthur Conan Doyle pastiche. With vampires.

Comments

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[info]kendwoods wrote:
Aug. 2nd, 2005 04:20 pm (UTC)
I read the term "sprawl fiction" today. It made me throw up in my mouth a litle bit.

[info]matociquala wrote:
Aug. 2nd, 2005 04:22 pm (UTC)
Good gravy. What's that?
(no subject) - [info]kendwoods - Aug. 2nd, 2005 04:26 pm (UTC) Expand
(no subject) - [info]matociquala - Aug. 2nd, 2005 04:35 pm (UTC) Expand
(no subject) - [info]coalescent - Aug. 2nd, 2005 06:48 pm (UTC) Expand
(no subject) - [info]jsgbits - Aug. 2nd, 2005 04:49 pm (UTC) Expand
(no subject) - [info]supergee - Aug. 2nd, 2005 06:34 pm (UTC) Expand
what's your next book about - [info]pir_anha - Aug. 2nd, 2005 10:14 pm (UTC) Expand
(no subject) - [info]almeda - Aug. 3rd, 2005 02:42 am (UTC) Expand
[info]copperwise wrote:
Aug. 2nd, 2005 04:25 pm (UTC)
"There is no new thing under the sun."

A lot of my favorite books overlap in ideas and themes. It's what the author does with them that matters. It's making the characters come alive, showing the essential humanness of people whether they're in medieval France or on a space station in 2523 or in an underwater biodome. Ideas make it interesting, the rest makes it literature. You are sooooo right on here.
[info]matociquala wrote:
Aug. 2nd, 2005 04:38 pm (UTC)
Voice. Yeah. THAT thing.
[info]cathemery wrote:
Aug. 2nd, 2005 04:30 pm (UTC)
::loves::

(Randall Garrett? ACD? ooooo ::loves more::)
[info]matociquala wrote:
Aug. 2nd, 2005 04:34 pm (UTC)
And zeppelins. Did I mention the zeppelins?
(no subject) - [info]caulay - Aug. 2nd, 2005 06:44 pm (UTC) Expand
[info]barbarienne wrote:
Aug. 2nd, 2005 04:31 pm (UTC)
You sing it, girl. People get so offended when I say the same thing.

Probably because I say it in an offensive "get the hell over yourselves, you wankers" way. ;-)

Write the goddamn book you want to write. Those who like sensawunder or shiny ideas are welcome to write sensawunder and shiny-idea stories. And if no one wants to read them, that's not the fault of the readers. Readers are under no obligation to have the same taste as writers. They're not under obligation to have any taste at all!

Though they do taste sorta like chicken.
[info]matociquala wrote:
Aug. 2nd, 2005 04:39 pm (UTC)
Mm. Chicken.
[info]autopope wrote:
Aug. 2nd, 2005 04:33 pm (UTC)
What bugs me most of all is the assumption that, because I've written one type of fiction in the past, all my work has got to play on the same themes or exhibit the same strengths and weaknesses. In other words, once a writer of ideas-heavy-character-poor-singularity-fiction, always a writer of ideas-heavy-character-poor-singularity-fiction.

So help me, it's enough to make me write a Mundane SF novel, just to thumb my nose at the pigeon-holers.
[info]matociquala wrote:
Aug. 2nd, 2005 04:37 pm (UTC)
I get that too. I write military fiction, or cyberpunk, or whatever. Athen people find my short fiction and are shocked.

I think you should write a sprawling epic fantasy series and critique of free-market Capitalism. That'll show them!

...oh, wait.
(no subject) - [info]scalzi - Aug. 2nd, 2005 05:32 pm (UTC) Expand
(no subject) - [info]sclerotic_rings - Aug. 2nd, 2005 05:37 pm (UTC) Expand
(no subject) - [info]mrissa - Aug. 2nd, 2005 06:23 pm (UTC) Expand
(no subject) - [info]faithhopetricks - Aug. 2nd, 2005 08:20 pm (UTC) Expand
(no subject) - [info]matociquala - Aug. 2nd, 2005 08:53 pm (UTC) Expand
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(no subject) - [info]razorsmile - Aug. 2nd, 2005 10:12 pm (UTC) Expand
(no subject) - [info]matociquala - Aug. 2nd, 2005 10:34 pm (UTC) Expand
(no subject) - [info]almeda - Aug. 3rd, 2005 02:44 am (UTC) Expand
(no subject) - [info]ammitnox - Aug. 4th, 2005 08:41 pm (UTC) Expand
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(no subject) - [info]almeda - Aug. 5th, 2005 04:29 pm (UTC) Expand
(no subject) - [info]mrissa - Aug. 2nd, 2005 08:56 pm (UTC) Expand
[info]apis_mellifera wrote:
Aug. 2nd, 2005 04:40 pm (UTC)
I read a metric crapload of SF (and F, too) every month and the ones I tend to like the best are the ones that have really interesting stories and characters that are at least somewhat believable. Books that sacrifice plot and character on the altar of idea aren't going to do much for me, generally. The very best books, of course, are the ones where it all just works. Which I know is devilishly hard--there's a reason I stopped trying to be a writer all those years ago: I don't have the chops or the drive (it's not my proper job and no amount of wishing on my part is going to make it my proper job).

I certainly don't read everything that comes down the pike, or even the majority of everything, but in the last year I've read more new-to-me SF than I had in the previous 5 years and it's really been a revelation to see some of the neat things that people are doing both in SF and fantasy.
[info]faithhopetricks wrote:
Aug. 2nd, 2005 04:49 pm (UTC)
nodding over here like a bobblehead doll
I say it so often that people get sick of me, but as Sturgeon reportedly once said, "The best sf writers don't write SCIENCE fiction. They write science FICTION." And a lot of that, for me, is people over ideas. (I think Ursula K. Le Guin wrote about this, also, in "Science Fiction and Mrs. Brown," and that was hell, what, in the seventies?)

you surrealists had better get back over to Lit or Fantasy where you belong, don't let the sun set on you here, Kelly Link!

((teasplurt))

Then again my more radical ideas about genre (i.e. that there isn't really any, in the long run; it's all words, and books) tend to rile even usually mild-mannered people, so I'll shut up now.
[info]dakiwiboid wrote:
Aug. 2nd, 2005 07:09 pm (UTC)
Keep on quoting Sturgeon!
That's so true! I get so thoroughly sick of people who look down their pointy noses and say "I write LITERARY fiction, not GENRE fiction", forgetting that the emphasis needs to be on FICTION, damn it! I've read so much crap that seems to have been written by people who were writing for the admiration of a writer's workshop or a grant committee, rather than for real live reader!
[info]markbourne wrote:
Aug. 2nd, 2005 05:03 pm (UTC)
Oh, my heavens. Now I don't feel quite so alone. Thanks for putting that out there. (Now back to reading the latest Graham ["Who?"] Joyce novel.)
[info]channe wrote:
Aug. 2nd, 2005 05:18 pm (UTC)
Did you know you're in the airports? Er, "Hammered," that is.

Not just any common Huge International Airport with eighteen trillion different bookstores; no, the tiny regionals.

That's so coooooool.
[info]matociquala wrote:
Aug. 2nd, 2005 05:23 pm (UTC)
thanks!
I knew it had been spotted at Ronald Reagan Washington National Airport in DC, but I hadn't heard it was in little airports. I never seem to see it when I go in to check. *g*

w007!
[info]poukledden wrote:
Aug. 2nd, 2005 05:31 pm (UTC)
*applauds happily* I love Big Ideas, and Sensawunda, but it don't mean nothing if it doesn't say something interesting or important about that most basic of things -- being human, being alive. I've read some SF novels where I read through, and enjoy it while I'm doing so, but the minute I'm done? Heck if I can remember a darn thing. It left all the impression of jello. But the best stories have characters and events that stick under your skin forever...
[info]mmarques wrote:
Aug. 2nd, 2005 05:32 pm (UTC)
You have some shiny predictive ideas in Scardown, but it's the amazing and often surprising characters that kept me reading.
[info]sclerotic_rings wrote:
Aug. 2nd, 2005 05:34 pm (UTC)
Once again, you remind me again why I quit writing, and that's the highest compliment I can pay you.
[info]lavendertook wrote:
Aug. 2nd, 2005 05:37 pm (UTC)
What a wonderful essay! Yes.(-:
[info]cija wrote:
Aug. 2nd, 2005 06:00 pm (UTC)
But I write about people. Ideas are sort of a second-string focus of my work.

Mm. I cling to Sylvia Townsend Warner's remark: "I suddenly looked round on my career and thought, 'Good God, I've been understanding the human heart all these decades.' Bother the human heart, I'm tired of the human heart. I want to write about something entirely different."

Perhaps you have to be 80 and to have written about, well, the human heart all your life for this to come out with the proper amount of dash, but it is still a lovely sentiment to aspire to.

In the meanwhile, I write about people in aesthetically pleasing milieux because they're all I can handle.
[info]luna_the_cat wrote:
Aug. 2nd, 2005 06:27 pm (UTC)
Drat you all to heck for posting something interesting that I would love to respond to in depth on the night before I'm supposed to drive down for WorldCon.

Can I bother you about this in a week?
[info]matociquala wrote:
Aug. 2nd, 2005 06:31 pm (UTC)
sure.
[info]varianor wrote:
Aug. 2nd, 2005 06:34 pm (UTC)
Science FICTION
That was a well-written, thoughtful and interesting essay. Though I wonder if this isn't true of many "genres", not just SF. There are few books that transcend the niche that the publisher puts them into to become great works of art. However, having read such a great essay, and seen that you survived working at The Whole Donut, I am going to look for your fiction. Congratulations on your nomination!
[info]matociquala wrote:
Aug. 2nd, 2005 06:43 pm (UTC)
Re: Science FICTION
and I see you're from Connecticut! My favorite state!

Thank you!
[info]yhlee wrote:
Aug. 2nd, 2005 06:39 pm (UTC)
Great post and discussion!

My personal preference is to privilege ideas, and sometimes plotting, over character/ization. Not that I think this must be an either/or. And ever since the entire rest of the 9th grade English class thought Animal Farm was pointless and stupid, to my incredulity, I have realized that, hey--people read for different tastes. I do not mind--often enjoy--reading cardboard-character stories if the shiny ideas are sufficiently cool, and I would not argue it as literature in the sense of well-roundedness (is that the word?), and I would not expect most people to share that taste, and it is all good.

Anyway, in case any idea-centric people are reading your post and feel lonely. There are others! ;-)
[info]matociquala wrote:
Aug. 2nd, 2005 06:42 pm (UTC)
Please note, I'm not arguing that one should privilege characters over ideas in SF. I'm arguing that all the things that go into "literature" need to be balanced against "ideas" for the very best SF.

*g*

'Cause I like ideas, too.
(no subject) - [info]yhlee - Aug. 2nd, 2005 06:47 pm (UTC) Expand
(no subject) - [info]matociquala - Aug. 2nd, 2005 06:50 pm (UTC) Expand
balance between ideas and characters - [info]pir_anha - Aug. 2nd, 2005 10:24 pm (UTC) Expand
[info]misia wrote:
Aug. 2nd, 2005 06:45 pm (UTC)
Maybe we need to send 'round some yobs to whack these people with sticks. Then they could write fiction of the Whacked With Sticks school, and it would be really true.
[info]supergee wrote:
Aug. 2nd, 2005 07:35 pm (UTC)
I think I split the difference. I read for characters, ideas, and laughs, and enough of any one can make up for deficoencies in the other two. (I don't read for adventure, romance, and suspense.) Phil Dick had a small repertory company of interesting characters (the Middle Manager, the Bitch...), which put him ahead of most of the sf writers of time, but behind a lot of mimetic writers. It was things like the hot dog stands turning into pieces of paper that say "Hot Dog Stand" that kept me reading him.
[info]dsgood wrote:
Aug. 2nd, 2005 09:22 pm (UTC)
Note that the hot dog stand turning into a piece of paper saying "Hot Dog Stand" was never explained. That novel's Big Secret explained other things, but not that one.

Tangent: In Clans of the Alphane Moon, Phil Dick did better than most sf writers at describing a really sane human being. Note that I'm not saying he did it well.
[info]spimby wrote:
Aug. 2nd, 2005 09:54 pm (UTC)
I dunno what "myth," even, Scalzi's reacting to. Kilheffer seems to have had about the same way I did to Old Man's War and takes the opportunity to geek out about his love of British SF, setting up a false dichotomy in the process, as though nobody in the US was writing anything but Heinlein juvenile clones with the F-word in them like Scalzi's debut.* This is absurd on its face, just as absurd, in fact, as Scalzi's tit-for-tat response, that everybody in the UK is aping sixties Moorcock. There's no myth, there, just individual geekings.

I imagine this is probably becoming a tiresome repeated response from the likes of [info]nihilistic_kid and me, but y'all should try writing horror--now there's a genre with a daunting monoculture to contend with. (Much more so, at least, than any other genre I'm aware of, save romance, if by "monoculture" we mean "Most fans only read within the genre and only read one kind of book therein," which is what I'm assuming we mean.)

*And for the record, I really wanted to like this book because Scalzi and I have been aquainted for relative eons in Internet time, way before either of us got anywhere near fiction publication and he's a good guy.
[info]scalzi wrote:
Aug. 2nd, 2005 10:43 pm (UTC)
"This is absurd on its face, just as absurd, in fact, as Scalzi's tit-for-tat response, that everybody in the UK is aping sixties Moorcock."

Well, yeah. The absurdity of the tit-for-tat reponse was intentional (that's why I noted it as "equally specious").

Killheffer geeking out is perfectly fine, of course; everyone has his own individual tastes. But Killheffer wants to suggest that things he doesn't like are a sign of malaise in science fiction, whereas the things he likes are the way science fiction should be (it's explicit in the last paragraph). In a word: Eh. I don't care whether Killheffer likes my book or not, but using it as an example of the decline of US science fiction seems a bit much, particularly as it's not at all evident that US science fiction is in decline outside of Killheffer's personal tastes.
[info]nicked_metal wrote:
Aug. 3rd, 2005 12:36 am (UTC)
In 1994, on rec.games.frp.advocacy, there was a discussion about whether or not GURPS represented a 'great step backwards' in roleplaying. Eventually, there came a realisation that different people played roleplaying games seeking different things. Not being satisfied with such a simple statement, the participants then went off and tried to identify what those different things were. After months of debate, the product was called 'GNS Theory'.

The idea was that there were three basic drives that exist in roleplayers, Gaming, Narrative, and Simulation.

The Gamer wants to 'win' - they want to kill the biggest monsters, get the best treasure, etc, etc.

The Narrativist wants to 'tell a story' and is concerned about storyline and catharsis and that kind of thing.

The Simulationist wants 'realism' - for actions in the game to produce the consequences that they would produce if the roleplaying scenario were real.

Nerds have a tendency towards Gamist and Simulationist drives, and so nerd-dominated genres (such as SF) have tended to cater for this. However, the mainstream audience tends to prefer Narrative. The ideal, of course, is to combine all three somehow, but given finite resources of time and skill, tradeoffs have to be made.

The really demanding SF readers are nerds that have grown up. They expect realistic simulation of interesting ideas, they like to think that they aren't gamers anymore (but they still hanker after the cool and the flashy) and they demand stronger narratives.

The other factor at work, I think, is the increasing popularity and perceived coolness of 'urban fantasy', which is drawing the ideas-people that previously went to SF. (Ideas-people generally like to perceive themselves as cutting edge, but these days it's likely that your parents read SF.)
[info]matociquala wrote:
Aug. 3rd, 2005 12:46 am (UTC)
That's very smart. Thank you.
(no subject) - [info]nicked_metal - Aug. 3rd, 2005 02:21 pm (UTC) Expand
(no subject) - [info]matociquala - Aug. 3rd, 2005 03:06 pm (UTC) Expand
(no subject) - [info]princejvstin - Aug. 3rd, 2005 03:44 pm (UTC) Expand
(no subject) - [info]matociquala - Aug. 3rd, 2005 03:45 pm (UTC) Expand
[info]deborahb wrote:
Aug. 3rd, 2005 12:59 am (UTC)
Yeah!!!

Great post. :))
[info]pecunium wrote:
Aug. 3rd, 2005 01:35 am (UTC)
I just read the stuff.

And non-fic, and hist-fic, and myst-fic, and detective-fic, and poetry and lit.

Then again, I tend to not reat criticism, and avoid reviews.

When I used to be a more active con-goer, I just read the stuff. We might argue about what we liked/didn't like thought worked and didn't, but I don't recall being too damned worried about whether Gibson was really SF, or Brust was either.

I read it because it moves me. If it don't move me, from erotica, to political commentary, I stop reading it.

TK
[info]matociquala wrote:
Aug. 3rd, 2005 01:39 am (UTC)
You are the ideal reader, sir. A man with no axe to grind.

I wonder, actually, if those of us who write spend so much time with editors, other writers, and critics, that we forget that the opinion that really matters is the buy picking up the book at the local store.
(no subject) - [info]pecunium - Aug. 3rd, 2005 01:45 am (UTC) Expand
[info]shewhomust wrote:
Aug. 3rd, 2005 10:58 am (UTC)
Hey, you write 'em and I'll read 'em - and this goes a long way to explaining why.

Finished Hammered last night: realised that all those "more to come" pages weren't, in fact, "more to come" at all, and that yes, you really were going to stop on that line, cursed, picked up Scardown and started right in...
[info]matociquala wrote:
Aug. 3rd, 2005 02:40 pm (UTC)
My nefarious plan works! Yay!
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