erudite[00:07]
matociquala: Yeah.[00:07]
matociquala: Make him read (Tim Pratt's) harpy story.[00:07]
cpolk: harpy story.[00:07]
matociquala: and then explain why in your estimation the protag is a stupid sellout bitch[00:07]
cpolk: and if he doesn't get that it really is a harpy?[00:07]
matociquala: and she's doomed herself to misery *g*[00:07]
cpolk: yes.[00:08]
cpolk: dooooooomed.[00:08]
cpolk: that is not a happy ending.[00:08]
matociquala: Some people think it is.[00:08]
matociquala: That's why it's a good story.[00:08]
cpolk: they're dumb.[00:08]
matociquala: Nah, not dumb.[00:08]
matociquala: Just have different priorities.[00:08]
cpolk: well, they'd never have a harpy as a roommate.[00:09]
matociquala: But it's a good story because Tim can make that work.[00:09]
matociquala: It's a happy little love story for thems that want that, and for us it's a tragedy.[00:09]
cpolk: but he wrote it for us.[00:09]
matociquala: And yeah. I'd rather have the harpy. *g*[00:09]
cpolk: *all stubborn*[00:09]
matociquala: Heeeee[00:09]
matociquala: I dunno. I dunno what Tim thinks.[00:10]
matociquala: I talked to him about it a little, and I get the feeling he thought it was a story about sacrifice.[00:10]
cpolk: mm.[00:10]
matociquala: It's Peter Pan.[00:10]
cpolk: yeah, see, i didn't dig that either.[00:10]
matociquala: It's why I love Peter Pan, and hate almost all the adaptations.[00:10]
matociquala: have you read the book?[00:10]
cpolk: and I'm more about Lucy than about Susan.[00:10]
matociquala: Or seen the most recent movie?[00:11]
katallen: (on reflection I think it can also be a story about leaving an abusive relationship for some)[00:11]
cpolk: haven't.[00:11]
matociquala: Yeah, me too. Lucy, not Susan. And Dorothy stays in Oz.[00:11]
cpolk: I saw the Disney animation[00:11]
cpolk: and hook.[00:11]
matociquala: Okay, Disney fucks it up.[00:11]
matociquala: And so does hook.[00:11]
cpolk: yeah, it's like in number of the beast[00:11]
matociquala: They Don't Get It[00:11]
cpolk: when they get to oz[00:11]
cpolk: and deja can't have her baby because she's there.[00:12]
matociquala: Because nothing changes in Oz.[00:12]
cpolk: nothing.[00:12]
matociquala: But Peter Pan--Neverland is not like Oz.[00:12]
matociquala: What Peter pan is about, is opportunity cost.[00:12]
cpolk: opportunity cost.[00:13]
cpolk: sounds like accounting.[00:13]
matociquala: Economics. *g*[00:13]
matociquala: Wendy can have Peter or she can have her family and her future.[00:13]
matociquala: She can be a Lost Boy's mother and a pirate's enemy or she can be a real mother.[00:13]
matociquala: And she chooses to be a real mother and regrets that choice forever.[00:13]
matociquala: And Peter--[00:13]
matociquala: Peter can have Wendy or he can have freedom.[00:14]
matociquala: And this is the part all the adaptations miss.[00:14]
cpolk: nodnod[00:14]
matociquala: Peter chooses freedom--and regrets that choice forever.[00:14]
matociquala: You see?[00:14]
cpolk: yes.[00:14]
matociquala: Both are valid choices.[00:14]
matociquala: but you cannot have both.[00:15]
matociquala: And the simple socially acceptable tame answer is that wendy's choice is the 'right' choice.[00:15]
matociquala: But that's not what Barrie gave us, and that's why Peter Pan is literature. *g*[00:15]
katallen: the road not taken[00:16]
matociquala: 'cause he doesn't have answers. he has questions.[00:16]
matociquala: Disney has answers.[00:16]
matociquala: Fuck Disney.[00:16]
katallen: ugh[00:16]
cpolk: i was actually quite surprised at brother bear.[00:16]
cpolk: wolf made me watch it.[00:16]
matociquala: oh?[00:16]
cpolk: and i was surprised at it.[00:16]
matociquala: owcome?[00:17]
cpolk: well, all the death, first of all.[00:17]
cpolk: and all the REVENGE![00:17]
cpolk: and then some "bears are cute!"[00:17]
matociquala: Hah![00:17]
cpolk: and then I had my stomach drop into my shoes when I realized what must have happened, and they didn't flinch from that[00:17]
matociquala: Disney flicks have lots of killing.[00:18]
cpolk: though I figured it out a few minutes before it was revealed.[00:18]
matociquala: I haven't seen it, though.[00:18]
cpolk: and then I realized that there was the right choice, and the choice that should be taken.[00:18]
matociquala: Oh. Did you notice the people who liked the ending of Harpy were the same ones who got so mad at me over Elaine?[00:18]
cpolk: and he took the choice that should be taken, though they syrupifed it.[00:19]
cpolk: yes, i did notice that.[00:19]
cpolk: and they were very - they tried to convince me that my take on it was wrong[00:19]
cpolk: that i shouldn't think that way.[00:19]
matociquala: Elaine stayed with the harpy.[00:19]
matociquala: And it made her a monster.[00:20]
matociquala: And here's the thing they missed--[00:20]
matociquala: Whiskey made the opposite choice, and so did Keith--[00:20]
matociquala: And so did the Mebd.[00:20]
matociquala: They all walked out of legend and did the human thing.[00:21]
matociquala: (And this is why I will always be a niche author, and not a best-seller.)[00:21]
matociquala: (The real world is shit scared of the harpy, and likes to pretend she's not ever a valid choice)[00:22]
cpolk: hee.[00:22]
katallen: or possibly the real world is shit scared of choices[00:22]
matociquala: Or making the wrong choice?[00:22]
katallen: and goes with what the crowd says they should[00:22]
matociquala: I was so mad at that girl for leaving the harpy.[00:22]
matociquala: furious.[00:23]
matociquala: I felt betrayed.[00:23]
katallen: because then no one can say they were wrong[00:23]
cpolk: i couldn't believe that she left the harpy.[00:23]
matociquala: As mad as people were at Elaine.[00:23]
cpolk: i couldn't BELIEVE it.[00:23]
matociquala: And that made me realize something--[00:23]
cpolk: that crazy bitch had the nerve to say that it was WRONG for her not to need her.[00:23]
matociquala: That's why those stories that get the high/low reviews sell.[00:23]
cpolk: because they actually *do* something?[00:24]
matociquala: I'll sell B&I because Somebody Hated It.[00:24]
matociquala: And Tim sold the Harpy because we hated it.[00:24]
katallen: heh[00:24]
matociquala: Because they're *true*[00:24]
matociquala: Tim's right.[00:24]
matociquala: Tim's fucking right.[00:24]
matociquala: Leave the harpy, marry the girl, live happily ever after...[00:24]
cpolk: well i hated it.[00:25]
cpolk: but I would have bought it.[00:25]
cpolk: hee[00:25]
matociquala: Take that feather out at two AM and touch it and wonder what the hell you did wrong.[00:25]
matociquala: that's life.[00:25]
katallen: ::kicks::[00:26]
matociquala: And we hated it, Chelsea, because we would have made the other choice, and that fucking story is our fucking feather.[00:26]
cpolk: yes.[00:26]
matociquala: And people hate B&I because B&I is their feather.[00:27]
matociquala: It's the story that says there's another way to do things that marrying the man and being the human being he needs you to be.[00:27]
matociquala: It's not any better. But it's not any worse.[00:27]
cpolk: ayuh.[00:27]
matociquala: Barbara Hambly pulled it off in Dragonsbane, too.[00:28]
matociquala: I would have gone with Morkeleb.[00:28]
matociquala: I know it.[00:28]
matociquala: I would have gone, and I would have regretted it.[00:28]
matociquala: Somebody else would have stayed and regretted it, like Jenny. *g*[00:29]
cpolk: hee![00:29]
matociquala: Isn't that a great magic trick?[00:29]
matociquala: It looks so complicated--[00:29]
matociquala: --and then you figure out how the writer does it--[00:29]
matociquala: and it's a rabbit and an elastic and a bit of string.[00:32]
katallen: it's an extension of story = choice[00:32]
matociquala: and want vs. need[00:32]
matociquala: It's...[00:32]
matociquala: fuck.[00:32]
matociquala: it's need vs. need, isn't it?[00:32]
katallen: we put choices into stories because they help stories be better[00:32]
katallen: but yeah, this is the further on[00:32]
katallen: need v need[00:33]
matociquala: Oh, I am so blogging this.[00:33]
cpolk: it's need vs. need.[00:33]
cpolk: and you can't get everything that you want.[00:33]
cpolk: or need.[00:33]
matociquala: Yes.[00:33]
cpolk: and that's just life.[00:33]
matociquala: Yes.[00:33]
cpolk: take the need that you need more, and regret the need you gave up.[00:33]
matociquala: Guys, can I just cut and paste this IM session to my lj?[00:34]
katallen: it kind of turns the conflict back and focuses it on the choice[00:34]
matociquala: Names edited to protect the guilty?[00:34]
katallen: but in a different way[00:34]
katallen: eh... I hardly say anything so, for sure[00:34]
matociquala: *g*[00:34]
matociquala: Chelsea, yeah, I think exactly.[00:34]
katallen: bugger, everything written is about a variation on a few tricks[00:34]
matociquala: Opportunity cost.[00:35]
katallen: just like magic[00:35]
matociquala: Kat, it so is.[00:35]
matociquala: how freaked out is that?[00:35]
matociquala: This is so damned simple.[00:35]
cpolk: it is so damned simple.[00:35]
matociquala: How come I never saw this before?[00:35]
cpolk: you weren't focused on it?[00:35]
matociquala: I wasn't trying to explain Peter Pan to a couple of writers.[00:36]
matociquala: It's like the Damon Knight thing--[00:36]
katallen: because it isn't until you know how to do one trick well that you can see how the next one is done[00:36]
cpolk: hmm.[00:36]
matociquala: Stories have a beginning, a middle and an ending. Some stories have a resolution instead of an ending--but you can't do that yet.[00:37]
matociquala: This the "that" you "can't do yet."[00:37]
matociquala: Or one of them.[00:37]
cpolk: yeah, there are things that I understand now that there is no way I could have understood if I had been told them in 2000.[00:37]
matociquala: Wow.[00:37]
katallen: I was saying pretty much the same to Kelly earlier... you have to be ready[00:37]
matociquala: you were. I remember.[00:38]
katallen: heel... would we have got it if we hadn't all read the Harpy story?[00:38]
matociquala: But, gah.[00:38]
matociquala: It's... fuck me.[00:38]
matociquala: Casablanca is a need v. need story.[00:38]
matociquala: Rick needs Ilsa.[00:38]
matociquala: But he also needs to be Rick again, and not a shadow of Rick.[00:39]
matociquala: The Last Unicorn.[00:39]
katallen: ::grins:: path not taken...[00:39]
matociquala: Schmendrick needs his magic, and the unicorn needs to save her people, and both of them need love--[00:39]
katallen: whichever you take, you will always know there was another[00:39]
matociquala: --but not as much.[00:39]
matociquala: Yeah.[00:39]
matociquala: God.[00:39]
matociquala: That's why they make me cry.[00:40]
matociquala: Because I want both, dammit.[00:40]
matociquala: I want the harpy and I want the girl.[00:41]
matociquala: It's the Gordon Lightfoot ending.[00:41]
katallen: and I wonder if Somebody who didn't like B&I also wants both, but from the other side[00:41]
matociquala: Yes, of course.[00:41]
matociquala: Or she wouldn't have been mad at Elaine.[00:42]
katallen: I'm swearing too much[00:42]
matociquala: Hambly has it right.[00:42]
katallen: but it's cool and I want to see how to make it work[00:43]
matociquala: I want the dragon, and I want the man and the boys and the mended chair.[00:43]
matociquala: and dragons and mended chairs and dorky, aging human men are not compatible.[00:44]
cpolk: nay.[00:44]
katallen: so what if you set up two needs against each other... two needs which aren't the same and appeal to different groups[00:44]
matociquala: Yes.[00:44]
matociquala: You get the story Charlie talks about.[00:44]
katallen: how would you pick which to have win?[00:44]
matociquala: The one people hate and people love.[00:44]
matociquala: Kat, I think you pick the one you root for as a human being.[00:44]
katallen: because I'm thinking about a couple of stories which I think tried it and failed[00:45]
matociquala: I have to choose the harpy.[00:45]
matociquala: Somebody else has to choose the girl.[00:45]
katallen: Katherine Kerr[00:45]
matociquala: I am false to myself if I choose the girl, and if I'm lying, the story will know it.[00:46]
katallen: three books setting up a choice between the girl having the guy and the girl having the magic[00:46]
matociquala: and?[00:46]
katallen: and when she chose the magic... I hated it[00:46]
matociquala: What about when you hate it and know it's right?[00:47]
matociquala: I'm thinking of "Unforgiven."[00:47]
matociquala: God, I hated it. I hated what Bill Muny chose.[00:47]
katallen: I mean, hate with a 'waste of my time reading that' hate[00:47]
matociquala: And I knew it was right.[00:47]
matociquala: Because he was a man who would choose that.[00:47]
katallen: and damn, but yes, she made the choice artificial[00:47]
matociquala: Ahhhhhhh![00:47]
matociquala: There.[00:48]
matociquala: So the choice has to be honest?[00:48]
katallen: yup[00:48]
katallen: you have to believe the two are incompatible[00:48]
cpolk: yes.[00:48]
katallen: so you can't have a guy who'll do anything for you[00:48]
matociquala: So when Schmendrick suddenly steps up and becomes the protag of The Last Unicorn [00:48]
cpolk: that was something that bugged the shit out of me about summon the keeper.[00:49]
matociquala: And he has to choose---[00:49]
cpolk: the you can have this or you can have this was artificial.[00:49]
matociquala: And boy has he got a complicated choice--[00:49]
matociquala: lessee.[00:49]
matociquala: He can have unicorns in the world[00:49]
matociquala: And a woman he kind of likes[00:49]
katallen: it's people trying to pull off the choice ending... but not knowing the trick[00:50]
matociquala: Or he can have the woman he loves, who doesn't belong to him, or anyone[00:50]
matociquala: and he can not have unicorns....[00:50]
katallen: (they know the magician does this this and this... but they don't know why... they just do what they saw him do)[00:50]
matociquala: and if he takes the first choice, he puts Althea at tremendous risk...[00:51]
matociquala: ...and puts his fate and the fate of the unicorns in her hands...[00:51]
matociquala: ...and he knows she can be weak...[00:51]
matociquala: ...but does he trust her?[00:51]
matociquala: Anyway?[00:51]
matociquala: In spite of that?[00:51]
matociquala: Fuck.[00:51]
matociquala: So he chooses, and then she chooses...[00:51]
katallen: that's even going one further maybe[00:51]
katallen: ::nods::[00:51]
matociquala: and they both sacrifice...[00:52]
matociquala: and--[00:52]
cpolk: ouch.[00:52]
matociquala: --he gets this other, totally unsuspected reward.[00:52]
matociquala: Because he becomes the person he's always fought to be.[00:52]
matociquala: He's Schmendrick the Magician now.[00:52]
matociquala: the Magician[00:53]
matociquala: ...and yet, he loses the unicorn.[00:53]
cpolk: the magician![00:54]
matociquala: Yeah, ouch.[00:54]
matociquala: and wow.[00:54]
katallen: and we are another level on[00:55]
matociquala: yeah.[00:55]
katallen: bugger... this may not help me make a story that would do that[00:56]
katallen: but I know a bit of how not to[00:56]
matociquala: It's fucking beautiful, though.[00:56]
cpolk: this is why i can't write rapture.[00:56]
cpolk: or at least, why I couldn't.[00:56]
matociquala: Because you have two needs[00:56]
matociquala: ?[00:56]
cpolk: what i set up is such an awful choice, that it's a kick in the ass either way[00:56]
cpolk: and I was afraid of that.[00:56]
katallen: ::grins:: fear not[00:56]
cpolk: because she can get off the planet[00:56]
matociquala: Yeah.[00:56]
cpolk: or stay.[00:57]
katallen: because as long as it's a real choice[00:57]
matociquala: You know all those stories we reject because of flat endings or because the risk isn't enough?[00:57]
katallen: ::nods::[00:57]
matociquala: why-do-i-care rejects?[00:58]
katallen: they're not even setting up the zero level[00:58]
matociquala: (Marlowe is staring at me and yawning)[00:58]
katallen: we need to get Chelsea in here earlier[00:58]
katallen: ::grins::[00:58]
matociquala: Heee.[00:58]
katallen: she's a catalyst