?

Log in

No account? Create an account
bear by san

March 2017

S M T W T F S
   1234
567891011
12131415161718
19202122232425
262728293031 

Tags

Powered by LiveJournal.com
bear by san

I got it one piece at a time...

In other news, my brain is trying to conflate Loki and Lucifer.

It works surprisingly well.

You get a complete narrative, as if each story is the missing half of the other one. Or each one explains the holes in the other one. (The Odin-Loki relationship and the Yahweh-Lucifer relationship have some great parallels, but they're different angles on the story, as it were. You still get the saga of a violent breakup and a war in heaven, and neither one really has a good explanation for the motives behind any of it, but somehow, when I jam them together in my head, they click.)

And this, of course, wouldn't fit into any of my working continuities, and I've already got two different Norse things going, and two hard riffs on Judeochristian myth. So really, I need another one.

I am in so much fucking trouble.

...I wonder if I can file the serial numbers off enough to get this into Dust. Since it's already going all Old Testament on me. Which is fun, for an SF novel.

Yup, that one might be starting to gel. Since truepenny gave me this today: 

For behold, the Lord comes forth from His place, and He shall descend and tread upon the high places of the earth. And the mountains shall melt under Him, and the valleys shall split-as wax before fire, as water poured down a steep place. All this is because of the transgression of Jacob, and because of the sins of the house of Israel. Who is the cause of the transgression of Jacob? Is it not Samaria? And who causes the high places of Judah? Is it not Jerusalem?

And I will make Samaria into a heap in the field, into a place for planting vineyards; and I will cast its stones down into the valley, and its foundations I will uncover. And all its graven images shall be crushed, and all its hires shall be burnt with fire, and all its idols I will lay waste; for from the hire of a harlot it gathered, and to the hire of a harlot shall they return.

Concerning this I will lament and wail; I will go mad and be naked; I will make a wailing as jackals, and mourning as ostriches. For she is mortally ill from her wounds, for it has come up to Judah; it has reached the gate of My people up to Jerusalem. Do not declare it in Gath, do not weep; in the houses of Aphrah, wallow in the dust.

I can feel the kinds of inklings that tell me that the worldbuilding is coming together, and the book is starting to make sense.

But first, I have to write New Amsterdam.

Comments

It indeed appear'd to Reason as if Desire was cast out, but the Devil's account is, that the Messiah fell, & formed a heaven of what he stole from the Abyss. William Blake, The Marriage of Heaven and Hell.
But of course. You've heard another story?

a couple of things (spoilers for Blood & Iron in the second one)

thing the first -

*whimpers*

'judeochristian'?

I study the Jewish takes on these texts for a living, and I've been exposed to a bunch of the christian perspectives as well, and the two takes are for the most part so different that they might as well be starting from complely different sources. I guess this comment is just my plea for the 'judeo' not to be lumped in with the 'christian'. (this allergic reaction brought to you by the time I had my evangelical christian seminary student neighbor ask me how I could possibly look at Isaiah and not see Jesus.)

thing the second -
Blood and Iron feedback!

It was rich and complex and painful in places, and there were no easy choices or easy resolutions. It felt like it was written for the me that spent all of fifth grade immersed in Arthurian myth, the me whose professional life revolves around wresting meaning from old stories and broken myths, and the me that spent much of high school reading all the fantasy I could get my hands on until I burned out on soul-bonded familiars Making Everything Better and Shiny Girls With Magic saving the day.

The thing that struck me most about the book is almost purely technical - because Matthew was the first character I met, I never quite lost sympathy for him, even as I was yelling at him to buy a clue and disagreeing with his choices. Whereas Elaine felt almost purely alien at first, and slowly grew into the character I had the most empathy for, even as (again) I was yelling at her and wishing she had better options in front of her.

Re: a couple of things (spoilers for Blood & Iron in the second one)

firstly: Judeochristian in the sense that I am neither, and cherry pick the bits of the myths that appeal to me--and they grow from the same traditions, though in different directions.

I'm talking *strictly* about myth/narrative/legend/story, mind you, not doctrine. (Some of the books deal with doctrine, too, but that's specifics, not the vast soup of story underneath it.)

secondly: Thank you!

Matthew's clue arrives on the slow bus, it's true. *g* He'll be paying for that next book...

Re: a couple of things (spoilers for Blood & Iron in the second one)

sorry if you get this twice - I had a bonehead LJ moment and posted this in the wrong place.

firstly: Judeochristian in the sense that I am neither, and cherry pick the bits of the myths that appeal to me--and they grow from the same traditions, though in different directions.

fair enough, but I would still argue that the myths have grown in *such* different directions that lumping them all into one category is...imprecise, at best. I think playing with these myths and stories in the context of fiction is awesome, even especially when that fiction is playing with and exposing the painful and broken bits, I just get defensive when I hear 'judeochristian' because it's a term that tends to make invisible the ways in which Judaism and Christianity (and the ways Jews and Christians interact with and tell these stories) are radically different. To make a semi-inappropriate comparison, it's sort of the way I feel when someone says they're going to take me to an 'Asian restaurant', and I don't know if that means Thai, Indian, or sushi.

does that make sense?

and poor Matthew - I hope his growth experiences aren't *too* painful.

Re: a couple of things (spoilers for Blood & Iron in the second one)

*g* Fair enough. On the other hand, it's impossible to talk about Christian myth without talking about Jewish myth. So... whaddaya call it? Once you start talking about Christianity, you're already lumping really disparate stuff together anyway.

Matthew... well, no promises. He's in for a rough ride, I fear.

Re: a couple of things (spoilers for Blood & Iron in the second one)

So... whaddaya call it?

::laughs::

excellent question. Myself, I tend to name the immediate source text I'm drawing from(biblical book, midrashic compliation, talmudic tractate, epic poem, prophetic screed...), but that could just be because I'm a huge geek in general and an even bigger geek about religion & biblical studies. More generally, if I'm talking about something genuinely shared across all three Abrahamic traditions (like monotheism as a concept), I'll pretty much just call it that (Abrahamic). Pre-Biblical stuff becomes Ancient Near Eastern mythology, Hebrew Bible/Old Testament gets called Israelite or Hebrew, and after that things get named based on which tradition they come from.

So, anything based on Milton is for me very specifically *Christian*, even though *his* work is based on an Israelite text.

::re-reads previous two paragraphs::

::sighs::

I'm human, I like to name things - can you tell?

Re: a couple of things (spoilers for Blood & Iron in the second one)

*g* You are a specialist. It looks good on you.

Alas, I am not....

Re: a couple of things (spoilers for Blood & Iron in the second one)

it occurred to me after I posted that last comment that in the midst of all the nit-picking, I forgot to tell you that the Loki-Lucifer parallel sounds rich and interesting and loading with possibilites.

( I originally typed that Loki/Lucifer, and then my slasher's brain went to a Very Bad Place.)

Re: a couple of things (spoilers for Blood & Iron in the second one)

FWIW, I had to go back and take those out myself....

Although, yanno, that might explain some things. :-P Loki is the original MPREG go-to guy, after all.

Re: a couple of things (spoilers for Blood & Iron in the second one)

Although, yanno, that might explain some things. :-P Loki is the original MPREG go-to guy, after all.

::sporfle::

and I adore your icon.

Re: a couple of things (spoilers for Blood & Iron in the second one)

*g* the quote's from Scott Lynch's lj--there's a link to the relevant post down the bottom of my userinfo.

WELL WORTH a trip over there.

Re: a couple of things (spoilers for Blood & Iron in the second one)

er, that would be *loaded* with possibilities.

silly automatic typing habits.

Re: a couple of things (spoilers for Blood & Iron in the second one)

Yeah, um. Go read the chapters I just posted on the elizabethbear journal.

I'm already in trouble on that front. :-P

Re: a couple of things (spoilers for Blood & Iron in the second one)

( I originally typed that Loki/Lucifer, and then my slasher's brain went to a Very Bad Place.)

I just gave out with a hysterical cackle which brought the dog running in to see what was wrong with me. For my sins, I gave him a french fry to go with my apology.

In re 'Asian' restaurants

Here in Chicago, if a restaurant advertises itself as 'Asian', 'Pan-Asian,' or (God help us) 'Eastern Fusion,' it means it's owned by Koreans.
gee, and i'm so dumb i just assumed that lucifer was prometheus before he had his liver ripped at for a few eons, and Loki was prometheus after he escaped.

But i always make things too simple.
I like Micah; he is *seriously* ticked off. I think the word should be "micahiad" instead of "jeremiad." And then there's this:

"He has told you, O man, what is good,
And what the LORD requires of you:
Only to do justice,
And to love goodness,
And to walk modestly with your God;
Then will your name achieve wisdom."


(6:8-9). But people keep forgetting that part.
that bit's not sexay.
You mean not flashy and dramatic? Well, no. But I find the contrast with all the threat of death and destruction ... intriguing. Or resonancy. Like the sound before the clapper strikes the bell.
Yeah, I agree. It's all about the peaks and valleys, after all.
That part's the chorus to a hymn they sing at my church with considerable frequency. Well, the chorus is based on it, anyway. :)

(It's one I rather like, as far as post-1970s hymns go...and now it's stuck in my head. Thanks a lot!)
V. Cool.

My dad once told me he thought ragnarok and armageddon sounded like the same battle story told from opposite sides.

And he's something of an historical-christian scholar, as a hobby.

Hmmm... aren't Loki and Lucifer both associated with fire, but seem to have no power over it or related to it?
Lucifer's associated with fire, in the sense of being associated with Hell. Loki... he's often listed as the god of fire in modern thingies on the Norse gods, but then, most of them get Loki wrong, wrong wrong. (He's complicated.)

The only *actual* fire-myth about him that I can think of is that he once lost an eating contest to fire. *g* Which doesn't make sense of him as a fire-god.
I'd heard, though it's not my area, that hell was on fire when Lucifer got there and he can't do anything about it. He might want to, the smell of smoke and brimstone seems to give him a way a lot whenever he's relaxing by grifting some hicks or attending a fiddle competition.

It'd be interesting to track down where Loki got mixed up with fire. Does he smell like smoke and brimstone and men and gods started making assumptions? ;)